Lived Experience Forum

[greenpea]

@Bow  I have a professional relationship with my psychiatrist but a closer one with my mental health nurse. Seriously Bow the things I have said some would lock me away and just wouldnt get it.  It is a shame that you cannot express your inner demons with your psychiatrist. I wish I was in a position to help but with the guidelines often our hands are tied.  Just know that you are not alone with the worst of the worst the pea is with you xxx

[Bow]

Glad you have those supports around you @greenpea it is important.

my psychiatrist is through the PHN, appointments done via Telehealth and I don't really like him. But this is the second one I've had in a couple of months and feel terrible if I didn't keep seeing him as my gp has done so much to put these things in place. I seen a psychiatrist for my ed recently, she specialises in Ed's, I'd really like to see, I connected with her. I had a mental health nurse come visit me a couple of weeks ago to do an assessment... she will come see me once a month. 
some of the things my gp has put in place support wise is really good, I appreciate all of it, but some things just don't help. I see her nearly once a week and feel like I sometimes have to fake till I make it so not to disappoint her. It's frustrating that I'm not seeing more improvements. I have something to look forward to this week.... but it still doesn't change the fact that I desperately don't want to be here anymore. 

[chibam]

This is a conundrum. And even though I've long given therapy away, it still tangles me up.

When I was in therapy, I always played it safe by never telling the therapists directly that I was suicidal at the time; though on occasion, I had mentioned that I'd been suicidal earlier in life, so they knew I was capable. I'm glad I was so cautious, now, as I never got committed to a psych ward.

But the problem remains, how can you chart a course to a life worth living if you can't have honest conversations about suicide? How can you expect serious help to get out of a situation that's worse then death if you can't explicitly tell people that your situation is a fate worse then death? How can you trust someone to guide you to a life that's worth prolonging if you can't explicitly tell them what fates are less desirable then death to you? When your running off a foreigner mindset's concepts of what outcomes are "acceptable" and what ones are "unacceptable", god knows where you'll end up! Talk about playing russian roulette!

As I've said, I've long given therapy away, but occasionally when I find myself in need of advice, I turn to the internet and that's where things can often get very tricky because online, it's very difficult to have frank conversations about suicide and the merits of it. Lots of websites are very touchy about anything that could be remotely construed as a positive depiction of suicide - including statements that suicide is a more preferable option then certain standards of living. So you really aren't free to communicate. And it effects everything. You would be amazed how it ripples throughout all decision-making mechanisms, into seemingly unrelated issues, when you and the person you are talking to can't be on the same page about what's better then death and what's worse.

Meanwhile, the places that are a bit freer when it comes to suicide dialog are usually populated with people who are so beaten down that they really don't have the umph to talk thoughtfully about anything other then suicide. So you end up left with nowhere to go.

Sorry for the ramble. I know I'm not offering any answers, because I don't have any myself. I'm just as lost as anybody in this issue.

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@Appleblossom wrote:

I was honest throughout late November and December last year.  The services were dishonest with me.  @Former-Member @Bow Mostly I am very restrained about voicing my own SI. 

...

I was open and left myself open to very damaging experiences.

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I can relate to this. Being open with my therapist was a really bad move for me. She used what she'd learned to get inside my head and really make a bad outlook immensely more dreadful.

It's one of the reasons why I'm not going back to therapy - because I can't afford to be honest ever again. And I struggle to imagine a fiction I can sell my therapist that will get him/her to give me the precise help I need from him/her.

[TideisTurning]

Hey @Bow, I'm hearing that it's been a struggle finding support professionals who can provide the help you're looking for that will work for you. I'm a little concerned about you and some of what you've mentioned. Please don't hesitate to reach out for support if what you're experiencing starts to feel too distressing. There's Lifeline, Suicide Callback Service or Sane's Helpcentre is open until 10pm this evening if you'd just like to speak to someone 1:1 non-urgently. 

[AussieRecharger]

Hi All, 

I have enjoyed this discussion and there are some excellent points from @Bow and @chibam. 

I guess when you are having this conversation, it envokes a hero's response, suddenly you need to be saved by yourself. I think you outlined the way to have some of those conversations @chibam when you talked about "how do you frame the conversation when you are talking about the alternative is worse than death"?. 

This is also part of the answer.. I don't want to put words in your mouths but I wonder if you reframe the question to be "What do I value in life at the moment that makes me not feel numb?"   

From the moment we are conceived, the only guarantee in life is that we will die. It just depends on what you want to do with the time given until death arrives.  

[chibam]

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@AussieRecharger wrote:

I think you outlined the way to have some of those conversations @chibam when you talked about "how do you frame the conversation when you are talking about the alternative is worse than death"?. 

This is also part of the answer.. I don't want to put words in your mouths but I wonder if you reframe the question to be "What do I value in life at the moment that makes me not feel numb?"

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Well, I don't know how it is for others, but I personally, have no trouble pinpointing what I value and need in my life. The problem is getting other people - especially the people you need to help you - to realize the value and importance of those assets. Because if you can't get the message through to them that: "without this in my life, I'm better off dead", they are all too inclined to push this attitude that: "you don't need that to survive, so I won't bother helping you with that.", Or: "I don't like the things that you like, so I'm not going to help you get them."

All they care is about making sure people are "safe". Beyond that, it's usually like talking to a brick wall. The idea that preserving a life has no merit if that life is devoid of value just doesn't register with them.

My therapist would always get a smug smirk on her face whenever I was trying to hammer that point home, as if she thought it was 'cute' that one of her nutters was trying to promote his irrational gibberish with such passion. Used to drive me up the wall.

[Bow]

@chibam lots of good questions there around talking about this.  i think ive had some similar conversations perhaps in a round about way. but its like walking on egg shells, very cautiously and sometimes back stepping when it feels like people are over reacting and wanting to jump into action.  i think having a good relationship with your therapist is probably key and i dont have that with mine... not yet anyways. perhaps a work in progress maybe. being open with my last therapist cost me that therapist. it was suggested that i let her know what was really going on for me, telling her about something that had happened recently and as a consequence how i was feeling and that i was in fact very suicidal and she wiped her hands of me as a result. im very hesitant to trust and open up with my new one and even more so to talk about suicide. in fact i wont ever tell her to the extent that i battle with it. not again. 

[Gwynn]

"All they care is about making sure people are "safe". Beyond that, it's usually like talking to a brick wall. The idea that preserving a life has no merit if that life is devoid of value just doesn't register with them."<br><br>So true, @chibam, so true. Having a life that's worth living is so important to reducing SI. I try to only talk about my SI with people I have a strong relationship with, who won't immediately leap into action when I don't have the means or a plan for my death. During my psychosis, I believe I attempted, so who knows what'll happen if I have my next psychotic episode.

[chibam]

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@Bow wrote:

i think having a good relationship with your therapist is probably key

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TBH, I'm of two minds regarding this. On one hand, I'm inclined to naturally agree, because it sounds quite true.

But then there's that other side of the argument that patients should be able to expect a basic standard from a therapist, regardless of the quality of their relationship.

I mean, when having a frank conversation about suicide can vary between abuse/harm or in respectful assistance, depending upon the patient's relationship with the therapist, that to me indicates a massive fault with the profession as a whole, not the individual treatment case. (keep in mind, it's in a therapists' job description to have frank discussions about suicide with patients!)

I don't know. Maybe I expect too much.

I just know that a lot of people tried to brush off the things I went through in therapy as: "well, a lot of times patients and therapists just don't 'click'", and it was nowhere near that benign. My therapists willfully neglected and abused me. My needs, values and concerns were heard, and deliberately disregarded. It wasn't miscommunication, or confusion, or subtle personality friction - it was outright disrespect and abuse.

If there had been basic respect, I still might not have been helped, but I would've been harmed much less and been released from the useless treatment much, much earlier and much more amicably.

In terms of the bigger picture, I really don't know how much stock to put in the idea that bad outcomes stem simply from incompatabilities between good therapists and good patients who just don't 'click'. Personally, I've come to suspect that it's just an excuse that's doled out all-too-willingly to explain away the massive proportions of harmful therapy.

But it's just a hunch. Maybe I'm wrong.

[greenpea]

@Bow